Yep. I'm doing it bois. Kept you waiting huh? But seriously though, if there's a historical match that should be done in this wiki, it's definitely this battle. It's the age-old never ending debate amongst history buffs. An argument that spans the scope of intellectual discussions and heated flame wars similar to that of Goku vs Superman. A match-up that we all wanted to see happen.
Who between these two legendary Empire builders and Ancient innovators from the East and West would win? These two lived together at around the same time, but separated by thousands of miles of desert and barbaric nations. It's time for Deadliest Fiction to end this debate once and for all. Well... sorta...
Rome vs Han?
Who is Deadliest?!
Roman Army[]
| “ | Victory in war does not depend entirely upon numbers or mere courage; only skill and discipline will insure it.
— Flavius Vegetius Renatus
|
” |
The backbone of Ancient Rome was the formidable Roman Army. The Roman Army was extremely important in explaining the success of the Romans and the expansion of the Roman Empire. The Roman Army, in different periods of time, conquered what we now call England/Wales, Spain, France, Germany, the northern coast of Africa, Middle East, and Greece. The Roman army did not start out as the superlative fighting machine that came to dominate much of the know world. It began like the part-time Greek army, with farmers returning to their fields after a quick summer campaign. Then it changed into a professional organization as Roman landowners were no longer willing to spend long periods of time fighting a long way from home. The Roman general and 7-time consul Marius is considered responsible for the change of the Roman army into its professional form, with long terms of service far from home. He gave the poorest classes in Rome the opportunity to be career military, gave land to veterans, and changed the composition of the legion. Many of the reforms during Marius' time (which was further improved by Julius Caesar) such as being promoted by merit rather than class, brotherhood loyalty, and stoic discipline, influenced much of the armies of later Western civilizations even to this day.
The most iconic unit in the Roman Army, and the popular image that we have of the Romans, were the legendary Roman Legions. A Roman Legionary functions as the army's heavy infantry, completely well-armed and well-armored by the state. The legionaries come from various backgrounds, from landless peasants who wanted to gain riches, to young aristocrats who wanted to climb up the ranks of the Roman elite. Well-armed and highly-trained, the Legions were knowledgeable in all forms of combats from melee to ranged.
They were typically armed with a Pilum, a 4-foot javelin with a 2-foot long metal tip so slim that it could penetrate shields and armor. When thrown in an arc, it had a range of 30+ yards. What made the pilum such a deadly weapon was its tip which bended to any shield that it went through. This made it hard for an enemy to pull out so that they wouldn't be able to use it against the Romans, as well as forcing said enemy to discard their shields. It's still debated how many pilum a Roman Legionnary had, with Polybius and Vegetius stating that they carried two. The secondary weapon that the Roman had is his Gladius, 2.5 feet double-edged straight sword that was used in conjuction with a shield. The flat straight blade allowed it to get through the gaps during intense shield-to-shield combat. As a back-up weapon, they also carried a Pugio, an 18-cm double-edged dagger.
When it comes to their armor, the best armor that the Roman legionary could have was the Lorica Segmentata, made up of overlapping strips made of steel. Those overlapping strips provided much better defense from all kinds of melee and missile weapons. The armor was supplemented by a Galea, a steel helmet that protected the temple, back of the head, and cheeks (but not the face). The Scutum shield also protected the Legion and was instrumental in their formations. Made up of three layers of wood, canvas, and leather, with a steel boss at the center, it protected the Roman soldier almost entirely with its large rectangular shape. Another innovation that the Romans had were the Calage, which were the Nike of their time. These were sandals that had metal studs that offered traction when running.
Roman archers or Sagitarrii had evolved over time but by the height of the Empire they were mostly composed of auxillia from Syria, Anatolia, Thrace, and at one point, Crete. However, there were also records of Romans being levied as archers as well. Archers basically served to support and protect the heavy infantry, with the former protecting the latter as well. They were typically placed at the ninth rank or row behind the legionnaires, where they could safely fire their arrows overhead. According to Vegetius, Roman archers were trained to fire arrows at 200 meters (or 218 yards) away.
The Sagitarrii were armed primarily with a Composite Bow, with horns that allowed it to fire at long range. Historian M.C. Bishop believed that Roman composite bows were asymmetric, with lower limbs shorter than the upper limbs so that it can be used effortlessly on both foot and on horseback. The archers used a variety of arrows but most used short narrow-headed arrow points for maximum penetration. Roman archers also fired their bows using the "Mediterranean Release" (bow is held on the left and the arrow at the right, with one finger above the flight of the arrow, and one or two fingers below). Archers used a bracer or a left arm guard to protect their arms when firing the bow. For melee they were also armed with a Pugio.
Unlike other archers of their time, the Roman archers were well-armored. They used a variety of armors though during Trajan's time Lorica Squamata was the most prevalent. These were scale armor with overlapping set of bronze scales (either sown or riveted) that offered protection from striking, stabbing, and blunt force attacks. They also wear Conical Helmets made of bronze or iron that were similar in design to those used in Eastern territories.
The Roman Cavalry were the second most important unit in the Roman Army. Like the Sagitarri, the cavalry also evolved throughout the time, being initially made up of Roman nobles who could afford horses, to auxillia from Gaul (specifically the Belgii) and later Germania. The Roman cavalry functioned as both shock troops that could charge at an enemy and scatter them, or as a sweeping force to attack runners after the Legions had done their job. The height of the Roman cavalry happened during Trajan's time, where many foreign auxillia served as cavalry under Roman officers such as Tiberius Claudius Maximus.
Roman Cavalry were mainly melee-oriented, carrying a heavy two-handed lance called the Kontos, which typically had a length of 12 feet and used to drive through an enemy while riding top-speed on horseback. They also carried a Spatha sword which were slightly longer than the gladius for better usage on horseback. The sword had a rounded tip to prevent the rider from poking their own horse with it. However, what really made the Roman cavalry revolutionary was their Four-Horned Saddle. At the time when stirrups were not yet invented, the saddle gave a much tighter and stable grip for the rider, which was useful especially when a horseman was using a weapon.
When it came to armor, the Roman cavalry were armed with the Lorica Hamata, which was chainmail that protected the user from (limited) thrusting and slashing but not blunt-force. Its advantage over lorica segmentata and squamata was its larger surface area. Lorica hamata protected not only the torso but sometimes also the arms with its sleeves, and the upper legs with its skirt. They also wear Gallic Helmets that protected most of the temple.
A Carroballista was the result of centuries of innovation on the ballista concept that was started by the Greeks. Like a typical ballista, the carroballista was basically a huge crossbow but instead of its arcs bending to offer power, it instead used torsion to fire a bolt. The carroballista, however, was an innovation that appeared in Trajan's time where artillery had started to become more mobile. Carroballista were put on carts drawn by two or more mules. They fired huge bolts the size of javelins that could be used both in sieges and in field battle. Another great design at that time was its iron frame that not only made the whole apparatus lighter and more mobile but allowed the arm to be pulled back even further, giving 25% more power.
In the battlefield, a few number of carrobalista would ride into battle and fire at the enemy as the Legions were marching closer for close-quarters fighting. However, they were not used while the horses were moving (like a primitive drive-by shooting). Instead, a squad of carroballista would move into position, fire, and then retreat if the enemy tried to get close. Ballistas were particularly devastating, not only in power but also in range. At least one historical record mentioned how Trajan's ballistas were capable of outranging even Parthian bows.
There are at least two artillerymen who drive and operate the carrobalista. Based on the columns of Trajan, they wore Lorica Segmentata and were probably armed as any other Roman soldier. That being said, they did have weaknesses. Carroballistae were estimated to be heavy and thus slow. Although manueverable, it took a long time and much energy to reload, far more so than a typical crossbow. The complicated mechanism meant that it needed certain parts that must be present and in working condition to operate. It is also still pretty much debated whether these are crossbows mounted on carts, or giant crossbows that have wheels on them (like some Ancient howitzer).Han Army[]
| “ | First organize yourself, and then organize others. The wise win before they fight, while the ignorant fight to win. Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered, those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
— Zhuge Liang
|
” |
The Han Dynasty (206 BC – 220 AD) was the second imperial dynasty, preceded by the intense Qin Dynasty and succeeded by the fractured Three Kingdoms Period. During the longest imperial dynasty, China expanded its territory and trade, and Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism developed. It was divided into three periods: the Western Han (206 BC – 9 AD), the Xin Dynasty (9–23 AD), and the Eastern Han (25–220 AD). Throughout its different incarnations, the Han Army evolved as it faced different threats. As all men from the ages of 25 to 60 were required to serve two years in the army, the Han armies had 130,000 to 300,000 men at any given time. The Han however, became famous in history for their great innovations in warfare. Improved technology in the production of iron provided the Han army with better quality weaponry and shields and longer swords to better fight an enemy at a safer distance. Crossbows were a favorite weapon as they were in earlier dynasties. Kites were used to send messages from one part of the army to another. These innovations helped paved the way for the Han to expand.
At the beginning of the Han dynasty, every male commoner aged twenty-three was liable for conscription into the military. The minimum age for the military draft was reduced to twenty after Emperor Zhao's reign. These conscripts were formed into Tu-wei-fus (aka battalions), and underwent one year of training and one year of service as non-professional soldiers. During the Eastern Han, conscription could be avoided if one paid a commutable tax. The Eastern Han court favored the recruitment of a volunteer army. During times of war, the volunteer army was increased, and a much larger militia was raised across the country as a supplement known as the Hou-kuan (aka provincial units). Amnestied convicts called Ch’ih-hsing were also used.
Each infantryman in the Han Dynasty were armed with different weapons, but chiefly the polearm and the sword. Changzu or halberds which had two blades and a point, specifically a dagger and a spear. Its length varied but were typically 7.2 feet. They were also armed with a Huǎn Shǒu Dāo sword, which was a single-edged straight blade that was 3 feet in length, and had a ring on its handle with a rope tied around it connected to the waist, to prevent the warrior from being disarmed.
For armor, the Han soldiers wore Iron Lamellar Armor made of many pieces of individual scales stitched together, offering quite the protection against swords, spears, and arrows. Like most Eastern lamellar armor, the Han variant seemed to use predominantly stitches, which was cheaper but also less durable (since stitches could break or be torn). A complete set of Han armor consisted of thigh covers and an iron helmet that covered most of the head except for the face. Infantrymen were also armed with shields that they use in conjuction with their melee weapons. The most common were the Dun Pai which were small square or rectangular wooden shields that had a space in the side where one could place his spear firmly. Infantrymen were also armed with a Hook Shield; an iron buckler with hooks at the top and bottom for hooking halberds or spears, and sometimes had a thorny protrusion in the middle for attacking.
No Chinese ranged weapon had become as iconic as the Chinese crossbow or Nu. Repeating crossbows already existed during the Han Dynasty, which also according to them, first appeared in the Warring States Period. Han Dynasty's records were confirmed by the existence of the Chu-state crossbow relic. These were shaped horizontally and had short wooden stocks which fired bronze or iron-headed bolts. The crossbows had a magazine located above the stock, containing 20 bolts. The device can be fired repeatedly by moving the input link forward and backward. Another innovation was the trigger, which was much safer and more reliable to use.
When it came to their armor, the Han Crossbowmen adopted protection against the same weapon they were using. Traditionally, they wore hide armor but this proved weak against projectile weapons. Based on the records of the Chung Ch'ang-t'ung, this armor was gradually replaced, first by copper scale, then iron scales, before finally, iron plates. The gradual use of Iron Plates was caused more by internal conflicts and necessities than external wars against foreigners. They could be further protected by being placed at the back of the armored infantry who carried large shields and long spears.
The Han dynasty used the crossbow to such good effect that it was largely credited as the reason for that state’s dominance. A well-trained crossbow corp was more than capable of seeing off a cavalry charge or incurring devastating casualties if firing as a unit into the flank of enemy infantry during an ambush. Catching enemy troops in a crossfire by splitting one’s crossbowmen into two groups was another highly successful tactic. The crossbow was particularly effective against cavalry charges for two reasons. One, the crossbow could shoot harder than the bows of the Xiongnu, and two, even if the enemy went back to collect the quarrels, they had no way of using them because they were too short for their bows.
The Han Dynasty's mounted force was a mix of chariot and cavalry regiment, although after their experiences with the Xiongnu, the Hans started to adopt the cavalry as their primary mounted force. Like the early Equites and the Medieval Knights, most of the Han cavalrymen were of noble birth since they're the only ones who could afford rearing horses. Later on, auxilliaries from allied tribes like the Hsiung-nu were also included. Their roles evolved over the time, from being used as the "final blow" after the missile troops had done their work, for reconnaissance and pursuit, and as shock troops who could also pin down enemy cavalry.
The backbone of the Han cavalry were the noble-born heavy cavalry corp known as the Liang Chia-Tzu. What made the Han cavalry formidable was their use of Qiang or spear lances, which could be as long as 13 feet. Their armor was not that different from the Han Infantryman, with Lamellar Suits of lacquered rawhide, hardened leather, bronze, iron, or steel. Protective Caps came as rawhide or hardened leather, or made of metal such as iron. Their shields though were different, as they used a version of the Dun Pai that was circular in shape, and used predominantly with the common Dao sword, against arrow fire. One common deployment of cavalry was to set them at the wings of infantry formations, protecting them from outflanking manoeuvres by the enemy. Cavalry was also used to protect an army's rear when it was on the move.
There are also some records to suggest that the Han cavalry used Armored Horses. According to surviving records, the Western Han Dynasty had 5,330 sets of horse armor at the Donghai Armory, but the usage wasn't widely adapted as most cavalry formation requires maneuverability. Another innovation was the invention of the Stirrup in the Han Dynasty, although unlike more reliable models that had two stirrups, a Han saddle only had one.
Throughout their experiences with the Xiongnu and other nomadic warriors, the Han started to adopt a contingent of Horse Archers of their own. It's unknown whether or not these were recruited mounted archers or the Han trained their cavalry to use bows on horseback (training of horse archers did date back to the Warring States Period). Nonetheless, the use of horse archers helped them extensively in war. Horsemen could attack the enemy to break up their infantry lines and disrupt the opposing commander’s planned tactical formations. Armed with bows and able to fire them on the move, riders could engage in hit-and-run attacks. Being highly mobile, cavalry also allowed unorthodox tactics.
Horse archers were considered as the light infantry of the Han cavalry. They were armed with a composite bow with a design similar to their Northern neighbors. Composite Bows were considered effective against unarmoured enemies at 165 yards, and against armoured opponents at 65 yards. Determining what armor they wore is a bit tricky though, since records about Chinese horse archers (at least English-translated ones) are hard to find. It can be determined through Han art that they did wear Tunics or Deels, and pointy Felt Caps on their heads. Simple clothing such as this would have made the horse archers faster and more mobile but with the risk of less defense.
The 3rd century BCE military treatise the Six Secret Teachings by T’ai Kung has this to say on the skills required by Han horse archers: "The rule for selecting cavalry warriors is to take those under forty, who are at least seven feet five inches tall, strong and quick, who surpass the average. Men who, while racing a horse, can fully draw a bow and shoot. Men who can gallop forward and back, left and right, and all around, both advancing and withdrawing. Men who can jump over moats and ditches, ascend hills and mounds, gallop through narrow confines, cross large marshes, and race into a strong enemy, causing chaos among their masses."
During the early Republic, Rome's soldiers were nothing more than levied citizens called upon to fight. As Rome's territories started to grow throughout the centuries, there became a need for men whose sole profession was to fight. What made Rome special in its time was their use of a professional body of soldiers whose ranks were made up of enlisted men from all corners of the Empire (unlike the Spartans whose professional soldiers were the elites). Another key factor to their rule was their homogeneity, in which soldiers were given the same standard weapons and armor that the state had to offer. As professional soldiers it was their duty to hone their skills in a daily basis through training and fighting.
Han's military was a bit different. Their recruitment was largely conscription based with male commoners from the age of 23 until the age of 56 (though this changed throughout the years). A Han male can be trained for one year and be given another year for military service. Although this had the advantage of making sure that every Han male had at least some military training, this also meant that their soldiers were part-timers at best. That being said, there were dedicated "professional" units in the Han Army such as the ones stationed at the frontier or at the palace who were armed 24/7, but these were smaller isolated units. Typically, in the Han Army, the richer you are, the better your equipment.
Throughout its history, Rome faced almost every Ancient superpower that the specific era had to offer (from the Republic to the Empire). In the West they fought civilized Greeks and Italians, and barbaric Celts, Dacians and Germanians. Form the East, they fought the magnificent Parthians and Iranians, to the radical Israelites. Everyone from as simple as Cilician Pirates to the mighty Numidians. Everyone that wants to pick a fight, they fought.
The Han Army had a shorter existence compared to the Roman Army, but they too fought a variety of enemies in their history. Their vicious war with various Xiongnu tribes that lasted for centuries is a testament to their resiliency. They fought one hell of a war against the Ancient Vietnamese, which they eventually won. And let's not forget their successful conquest of the Gosojeon Kingom in Korea. Although not that well-known, the Hans also defeated the Dayuans, whom historians believed to be the remaining remnants of the Greco-Bactrians.
Besides their battles with foreigners, both armies fought in internal wars as well, like the Caesarian Civil Wars and the Lulin Rebellion, or the Serville Wars and the Yellow Turban Rebellion.
The Roman Army is legendary for their revolutionary methods of war, especially when it came to infantry battles. Although their siege tactics were ingenious, they shone the most in pitch battles where they were specifically drilled in army formations. They would use the scutum to form a shield wall, and pilums were thrown en masse to soften enemies in front. Their amazing tactics include the "testudo formation" that was almost invulnerable to missile, and "repellere equites" to drive away cavalry. They also used a shield wall variant called "cuneum formate" where they charge towards an enemy in a wedge formation. Lines of infantry would rotate so that the front line would always be made up of fresh men. If faced with a formidable enemy, the Romans couls also use guerrilla warfare in the form of the Fabian strategy.
The Han Army moved mostly in columns based on how many soldiers and units were present. These columns can number between two (Battle of Mobei) to as many as four (Battle of Yiwulu). These columns are flexible, able to change routes or manuever easily. What made them formidable is their ability to adapt to every enemy or situation. In just a small amount of time, they managed to equal nomadic tribes in speed, maneuverability, and cavalry warfare. In fact, the Hans were really good when it comes to cavalry and frontier fighting, that it took them only a few generation to rival the Xiongnu. They were so great in adapting to terrain they were not accustomed before, that by the time of Emperor Wudi, Han soldiers and forts were capable of living off the land, independent from any supply trains.READ FIRST![]
- Battle takes place in a grassy hill.
- Each Army will have:
- 1000 Infantry
- 1000 Archers
- 500 Cavalry
- 100 Special Units
- Although I seldom say this, but please make your votes well-written and thorough. Reasoning such as "Han Army wins because they defeated the Huns while the Romans couldn't" will not be counted unless elaborated/argued upon.
- Rebuttals can bring down a vote to half or none depending on the reasoning.
- The Roman Army I will be using will be during the time of Trajan, and the Han Army I will be using will be during the time of the Yellow Turban Rebellion (because these are my favorite eras from each empires).
Some References Used[]
- The Roman Army at War: 100 BC-AD 200 by Adrian Keith Goldsworthy
- The Qin and Han Dynasties: The Flexibility and Adaptability of Military Force and Expansion by Christopher Hallenbrook
- History & Uniforms by Bruno Mugnai
- Mechanisms in Ancient Chinese Books with Illustrations by Kuo-Hung Hsiao, Hong-Sen Yan
- Wikipedia xD