User blog:Godzillavkk/Kingdom of the North vs Northern Water Tribe



The Kingdom of the North: The Separatist Nation of Westerns who fought the Iron Throne and White Walkers for Independence and survival

The Northern Water Tribe: The Northern nation of ice that fended of the Fire Nations ruthless sieges

WHO IS DEADLIEST?

Today’s battle pits two powerful Northern Fantasy kingdoms from 2 popular fantasy franchises against each other. Both waged war against a southern Kingdom that sought to rule the North, and fought tooth and nail to prevent that from happening. But if they ever meet on a cold northern battlefield, who would stand victorious, and who would be defeated?

Now before we analyze the armies, here are the rules of the battle.

1. We will be using the TV version of the Kingdom of the North since they had more success. If there are any book purists here, you’ve come to the wrong place. However, since some of the battles happened offscreen, whilei happened on page in the books, feel free to explain more about some battles in the comment section as we will be examining tactics.

2. Vassal states are welcome. Both nations had vassal states during their wars in the form of the Riverlands and Vale for the Kingdom, and Southern Tribe and Foggy Swamp tribe for the Northern Tribe, so they will be present.

3. The armies will be circa their respective wars of the first series of their TV franchise. We will be analyzing the armies during the times they were fighting the War of the Five Kings/Great War and Hundred Years War, so the Water Tribe will not have metal weapons, standard uniforms, pack and mount animals, mecha tanks, dark spirits, or southern guerrilla fighters. All engagements and events these armies were part of in their wars will be taken into account.

4. No independent allies. Both armies fought alongside other armies on the same side, but these armies were not sworn to the King or Chief or were part of the Kingdom of tribe. So no Daenary’s Targaryean, Free Folk, Dothraki, Unsullied Earth Kingdom, White Lotus, or Avatar Aang.

5. Sub-factions who defected and stayed defected will not be present. The Kingdom had a number of defectors, so they will not be present since they are traitors. So no Boltons or Freys. But since the Umbers and Karstarks re-joined House Stark, they will be present.

6. Since Waterbending is dictated by the phases of the moon, the phase of the moon during the battle will be the same as phase it's in the day the battle begins.

Kingdom of the North


Location: The North/Westeros

Government: Hereditary Monarchy

Vassal States: Riverlands, Vale

Geography:Rivers and plains, with forests and mountains in the northwest; temperate to sub-arctic.in the Neck along southern border.(North). Broad and fertile river basins, temperate.(Riverlands). Tall mountains punctuated by fertile river-valleys, temperate(Vale)

Head of State: House Stark/King/Queen in the North

Capital: Winterfell

Religion: Old Gods of the Forest(Majority in the North, Minority in the Riverlands and Vale) Faith of the Seven(Minority in the North, Majority in the Riverlands and Vale)

For many generations, the Westerosi land known as The North governed itself as an independent Kingdom, ruled by House Stark. But when Aegon the Conqueror came with his army and dragons to conquer Westeros, House Stark bent the knee. For 300 years, House Stark ruled as Wardens of the North, answering to the Iron Throne. But when Lord Eddard Stark discovered that the newly crowned King Joffrey was a bastard born from Queen Cersei and her brother Jamie, and not King Robert, he was executed. Outraged for this injustice, The North declared themselves independent again.

Lead by King Robb Stark, and later his Cousin Jon Snow/Aegon Targaryean, the Kingdom of the North waged a bloody war for independence against the Iron Throne, primarily against it’s Lannister armies. Despite being outnumbered, being betrayed several times within their ranks. and even losing the North, House Stark’s resourcefulness and determination allowed them to survive, and ultimately they reclaimed the North from those who betrayed them, restored their Kingdom, defeated the undead White Walkers, who sought to end all life, and won their independence under the rule of Queen Sansa Stark.

Army
Being dominated by the social system known as feudalism, the Kingdom of the North has no permanent, united army that stands behind the King in the North. Rather, individual armies are controlled separately by the noble houses of the North. Despite this, there is a clear chain of command: the King in the North can rally his banners, and in turn, the lords of noble houses can rally the banners of their vassals. Each lord maintains a permanent group of elite knights, warriors, and other guards. Furthermore, the smallfolk, or commoners, of the lands can be conscripted into the Northern armies through feudal levies. Being a less populous Westerosi Kingdom, The Northern armies are smaller then the massive armies of the south. So instead they must rely on cunning tactics to survive.



Northern Soldier

The average North soldier wears a brown or dark blue coat with green or grey sleeves, with chainmail worn under it and a suit of studded leather armor worn over it, also wears a pair of grey or brown leather boots. The soldiers are often equipped with helmets and rounded shields of steel or iron, both grey in color and the shields emblazoned with the Stark Direwolf. Warriors in the Northern heavy cavalry or heavy infantry wear relatively cheap brigandine armor, with many choosing to wear mail underneath as well, as compared with the expensive plate armor of the well equipped Lannister troops. They are armed primarily with swords, wathammers, axes and polearms. The only exception to this are the Cranogmen of the Neck, the North’s southern Swampland. They primarily use frog spears, fishhooks and blowguns. The cranogmen also don’t have garrisoned armies and instead rely on guerrilla forces. At the White Walker threat grew more prominent, Jon Snow was forced to bring women and children into the army due to shortage of manpower.



Riverland Soldier

Riverland soldiers are mostly armored in chainmail and leather, making them light and maneuverable, but more vulnerable to injury. Their archers are armed with both bows and arrows, as well as crossbows, making them useful in volley’s and shooting individual enemies. Their cavalry is light and is primarily used for flanking. They are armed primarily with swords, wathammers, axes and polearms.



Vale Soldiers

The knights of the Vale are capable of battling in the ice and snow due to the Vale's many altitudes, ranging from high to low ranges. Their house is wealthy due to trade and fertility from port-towns such as Gulltown, so the Arryn army is well-equipped compared to the Freys or the Starks. Their breastplate is silver and their shields are circular with House Arryn's sigil. Their uniforms are blue and their helmets are pointy. They are armed primarily with swords, wathammers, axes and polearms.

Heroes


King Robb Stark

The first King in the North since House Stark bent the knee, and the Young Wolf, King Robb Stark was declared King in the North after his father was executed. No longer trusting the Iron Throne, Robb declared the North independent and lead his army to victory many times. Robb is a deadly warrior and brilliant tactician, however he is a rather poor judge of character, his code of honor is a double edged sword, and since he was raised to be a lord rather then a king, he lacks the political skills needed to be a king.



Jon Snow

The second King in the North during the war, and the White Wolf, King Jon Snow was born to Lady Lyanna Stark and Prince Rhaegar Targaryean As Aegon Targaryean. Since House Targaryean was overthrown at the time of his birth, Jon had to be hidden from House Baratheon, so Lord Eddard Stark raised Jon as his bastard son and lied to the North about it. Raised as a bastard Jon’s future held little options for him, so he took the Black and went to the Night’s Watch. There he learned of the White Walkers planned invasion, and that Houses Bolton and Frey betrayed and murdered Robb. After allowing Free Folk beyond the wall to enter Castle Black, Jon was briefly killed by mutineers, but was resurrected by the sorceress Melisandre. Reuniting with his “half-sister” Sansa, he brought his free folk allies to the North and rallied as many houses as he could to reclaim the North. With their aid, along with unexpected aid from House Arryn, Jon reclaimed the North and defeated the vile Ramsay Bolton, and established an alliance with House Targaryean to defeat the White Walkers, and the Lannisters, though he killed Daenarys Targaryean when it was clear she went mad, and thus returned to the Night's Watch. Jon is a skilled warrior and living with the Nights Watch has given him great war experience. However he is a terrible strategist and is easy to fool. (Note, Since Robb was king before Jon, Jon will act as a general at the start of the battle. Should Robb fall, Jon will be King)



Princess Arya Stark

The youngest daughter of House Stark, Arya never really was interested in the “ladylike” things she was raised around and was more interested in fighting. After watching her father die, and learning that her brother Robb was betrayed, Arya left Westeros to search for the House of Black and to become a faceless man assassin. However, Arya’s sense of honor and justice prevented her from fully embracing the ruthless nature of the faceless men assassins. After escaping from the House of Black and White, Area used the skills she learned to assassinate Lord Walder Frey and many of his sons, who betrayed Robb. Though she is not a true faceless man, Arya has their abilities. She is a master of disguise and assassination and can physically change her face to fool her enemies. She also spent time blind while living with the faceless men and as such, her sense of hearing allows her to defeat enemies in the dark. She is also a skilled swordswoman, besting even Brienne of Tarth, and destroying the Night King.



Prince Bran Stark

The middle son of House Stark, Bran Stark's life was changed forever when his legs were permanrtly crippled. He began receiving visons from a three eyed raven, whom he traveled to for training. Under his titueledge, Bran learned to Warg into animals(Even if they are miles away), see into the past, and other events happening at the same time. This made him the primary target for the Night King, but his sister saved him.





Grey WInd and Ghost

The Direwolves of the two Kings in the North, Grey Wind and Ghost have rarely strayed far from their masters. An adult direwolf is as large as a small horse, and can rip a man's arm from its socket. Even a juvenile direwolf is quite capable of killing a man by ripping out his throat. Physically they are not simply larger versions of wolves, but have slightly different proportions than their smaller cousins; their heads are larger with a leaner, more pronounced muzzle, their legs are longer in proportion to their body, and they have proportionately larger teeth that are often used to crush bones.

Grey Wind was killed in the Red Wedding, albiet while caged, Ghost survived and returned to the Night's Watch with Jon.

War Record
Battle of the Golden Tooth(Defeat)

Battle of the Camps(Inconclusive)

Battle of the Green Fork(Tactical Defeat, Strategical Victory)

Battle of the Whispering Wood(Victory)

Battle of the Camps(Victory)

Execution of Eddard Stark(Defeat)

Liberation of Raventree Hall(Victory)

Liberation of Stone Hedge(Victory)

Battle of Oxcross(Victory)

Sack of Ashmemark(Victory)

Fall of Moat Cailin(Defeat)

Raid on Torrhen’s Square(Defeat)

First Battle of Deepwood Motte(Defeat)

Fall of Winterfell(Defeat)

Battle of the Yellow Fork(Victory)

Surrender of the Crag(Victory)

Battle of Stone Mill(Tactical victory, strategic defeat)

Liberation of Harrenhal(Tactical victory, strategically indecisive)

Red Wedding(Defeat, almost entire army wiped out, North divides between pro stark rebels and Iron Throne loyalists)

Skirmish at the Tuttle Farm(Victory)

Assassination of Ethan Forrester(Defeat)

Capture of the Whitehall garrison(Victory)

Ambush at White Harbor(Defeat)

Battle of Ironrath(Defeat, had aid from Merenese Pit Fighters)

Capture of Riverrun(Victory)

Second Siege of Riverrun(Defeat)

Battle of the Bastards(Victory, North reclaimed by House Stark, had aid from the Free Folk)

Assassinations at the Twins(Victory)

Wight Hunt(Victory, had from the Brotherhood Without Banners, Free Folk and House Targaryean)

Parlay in Kings Landing(Bend the knee to Dany but failed to get full Lannister support)

Fall of Last Hearth(Defeated)

Battle of Fire and Ice(Victorious)

Battle of King’s Landing(Victorious)

Northern Water Tribe


Location: North Pole

Government:Unitary hereditary monarchic chiefdom

Vassal States: Southern Water Tribe, Foggy Swamp Tribe

Geography: Arctic tundra, arctic mountains, inland tundra, coastal arctic plains, spirit wilds(North Pole). Arctic Tundra, coastal arctic plains, arctic caves(South Pole). Wetlands, swamps(Foggy swamp)

Head of State: Northern Tribal Chief

Capital: Northern Water Tribe Capital city

Religion: Tui and La(North only) The South’s religion is no longer practiced as it is forgotten, Unknown in the Foggy Swamp Tribe

The civilization known as the Water Tribe is actually not a singular nation per se, but rather a union of 3 different tribes in three different locations. The ruling tribe is the Northern Tribe. Located in the North Pole, the Northern Tribe oldest of the three tribes. A conservative and spiritual nation, the Northern tribe builds all it’s structures out of ice, maintains many ancient traditions, and pays great homages to the spirits, especially Tui and La, the Moon and Ocean spirits and it’s patron spirits as they give the tribe it’s power.

When the Hundred Years war began, the Water Tribe armed itself for the longest war in their world’s history. Though the Fire Nation’s primary target was the Earth Kingdom, they did send massive fleets of battleships to invade the North and South Poles. Though the Northern Tribe held the line, their southern vassals were almost entirely wiped out. The fortunes of the tribe turned when Avatar Aang entered the war. With his aid, the Northern tribe defeated the Fire Nation in a siege that nearly wiped the tribe off the map. The remnants of Southern Tribe military, the Foggy Swamp military and the Earth Kingdom remnants later joined Aang in an invasion of the Fire Nation.

Army
Unlike the Earth Kingdom and Fire Nation, the Tribe has no standing army. Instead they rely on organized militia’s to defend the tribe. Often these militia’s are not well equipped and outnumbered, so they must rely on knowledge of the country and willpower in order to survive.



Northern Water Tribe Warriors

The Northern Water Tribe has a sophisticated and organized militia, though no standing army. All adult male members of the Northern Water Tribe are fully-trained warriors, including both waterbenders and nonbenders. Master waterbenders who are involved in the military are referred to as "Water Warriors", and are known for being elite fighters as well as their ability to defend the ramparts of the capital city. Both benders and nonbenders are equipped with melee weapons including clubs, spears, scimitars, and machetes. These weapons are traditionally made of bone. There is no standard uniform, however, as the warriors either wear their casual clothing or fabric armor. Even though their equipment, organization and number is inferior to the Fire Nation Army, the Northern Water Tribe Army is adapted to the cold climate and treacherous landscape of the North Pole. This, together with their high morale, willpower and courage has enabled the warriors to successfully defend their tribe for one hundred years. Women are forbidden from military service.



Southern Tribe Warriors

The adult male members of the Southern Water Tribe are fully-trained warriors and combatants during the latter stages of the war. Following the loss of their waterbenders during raids instituted by the Fire Nation, the Southern Water Tribe fighting force has shifted to a purely nonbender unit. Warrior weaponry includes clubs, sharpened boomerangs, spears made of bone, scimitars, large shields and machetes lined with whale teeth on the dull side of the blade. Hakoda's expeditionary force, however, uses a special armor while on campaign. The armor consists of helmets in the shape of a wolf's head and are outfitted with arm braces and greaves. The designs on their chests are different for each man. Possessing this full body armor and additional shields that could withstand small fire blasts, the Southern warriors are better equipped than the nonbending warriors of the Northern Tribe, though this did little to aid the warriors during the raids of the South. Also, due to shortage of manpower in the latter stages of the war, women are permitted to fight.



The Foggy Swamp Tribe has a far less organized military than either the Northern or Southern Tribes. However, its waterbenders are skilled fighters and have been involved in at least one operation, the Invasion of the Fire Nation The Foggy Swamp tribesmen use no standard uniform, instead wearing their common clothing. Because of this, their armor consists only of simple wooden chest and arm guards. While waterbending tribe members utilize bending in combat, nonbenders use spears and shields.

Heroes


Chief Arnook

The chief of the Northern Water Tribe during the final years of the war, Arnook is no bender, but he is a capable fighter and military strategist. He is also a devout Moon and Ocean worshipper. These traits helped him lead the Northern Tribe to victory in the Siege of the North, but it cost him his only child.



Chief Hakoda

The chief of the Southern Water Tribe, and father of Katara and Sokka, Hakoda is a skilled fighter, tactician, and leader, able to flawlessly map out plans, and inspire hope in his troops. He also was a mentor to his son, passing knolwdge from father to son.



Katara

Katara is the daughter of Hakoda, and the finest waterbender of her time. Able to use abilities like water whip, entrap her enemies in ice, and even bloodbend, Katara is a force to be reckoned with despite minimal training. She remains optimisitc and hopeful throughout any battle, and never gives up.



Sokka

Sokka is the son of Hakoda, and a talanted warrior despite being a nonbender. Talanted in the boomerang, club, and dagger, he is easy to underestimate due to his poor sense of humor, and immaturity. But he is also an tech and science expert, and a decent strategist.







Tui and La

The source of the Water Tribes power, and it’s patron spirits, Tui and La are the moon and ocean spirits. Unlike other spirits, these spirits live in the mortal realm, and appear as two koi fish, swimming, and pushing and pulling each other in equal balance. Tui, the Moon Spirit, was the first Waterbender in recorded history as she moves the waves of the ocean. However, she is not a fighter, but a healer. She has the power to grant portions of her own life force to those stricken with fatal conditions. But this makes her the more vulnerable of the two, and if she is killed the moon will disappear, stripping all water benders of their power. There is a way of resurrecting Tui, though it requires payment. An individual whom Tui has healed in the past must return Tui’s life force back. This will resurrect Tui, but the mortal will die and their essence will merge with Tui, such was the fate of Princess Yue. La, the Ocean Spirit, is more active then Tui, but only if Tui is killed. If Tui is killed, La will drop his passive persona, and take on his true form as a giant koi monster, more then capable of destroying entire fleets of ships. Only Tui’s resurrection will sate the Ocean Spirits wrath.

War Record
Early attacks on the Northern Water tribe(All battles ended in victory)

Southern Water tribe Raids(Mostly defeats, possibly a few minor victories, eventual strategic victory as raids stopped and the Tribe was not wiped out)

Siege of the North(Victory, had aid from the Avatar)

Invasion of the Fire Nation(Defeat, had aid from the Earth Kingdom and Avatar)

Factors to consider
The Religion of the Old Gods of the Forest and the Religion of Tui and La have much in common with each other as both place value of respect to nature, nature’s balance, and harmony in the natural world. So how will Bran Stark, a Greenseer, view the Moon and Ocean spirits? How will they view him?

How would Bending fare against Greenseer and Facless Man power?

What would be a fair battlefield for these two? The climate would have to be one that both armies would be comfortable in, there would have to be enough land for the Kingdom to maneuver on, and enough water for the Waterbenders to use.

Note: There will be a werewood tree at House Stark’s war camp for Bran to use his Greenseer power, while Tui and La will be in a hidden spirit oases. I’m putting them in so that both armies might consider taking them out. But would they given the similarities of their prime religions?

Both armies are smaller then the other armies in the world and must rely on cunning and deceptive tactics in order to survive on the battlefield, so whoever outthinks the other will win, but who has the better tactics?

Both armies have swampland guerrilla fighters(I didn’t give the Cranogmen their own section since they are part of the main North) So at least one part of the battlefield will have to be a swamp so that the Cranogmen and Foggy Swamp warriors will have an area where they can execute hit and run tactics.=

My Edge
My personal edge goes to the Kingdom of the North. While the Northern Water Tribe has bending, and the benders will cause the Kingdom to suffer heavy casualties, the Kingdom of the North doesn’t have a luxury that the Water Tribe and even Earth Kingdom had, the Avatar. Most of the battles in the Hundred Years war prior to Aang;s entrance ended in Fire Nation victories. The only known victories the Water tribe and Earth Kingdom won prior to Aang were the early attacks on the North Pole, and the First Siege of Ba Sing Sa, and that’s because the Water Tribe had terrain advantage, and because Prince Lu Tein was killed, ergo, the Earth Kingdom got lucky.

The Water Tribe’s best victory was undoubtably the Siege of the North, but that’s because they had Aang with them. The Fire Nation was defeated in the early sieges because they didn’t know the terrain and didn’t know what the tribe’s weakness was. But in Zhao’s siege, he had learned from the mistakes of the early sieges, had better technology, and knew what the Tribe’s weakness was. That’s how Zhao almost won. Not to mention the tribe might have been using outdated tactics. But Aang was there to save the day. But had Aang NOT been there, the Northern Tribe would have certainly been destroyed. And even WITH the Avatar’s help the Water Tribe did not always win. During the invasion of the Fire Nation, the Water Tribe had support from the Earth Kingdom, AND Avatar, AND had the advantage of a solar eclipse cancelling the Fire Nations power, and even there they were defeated. The only reason the Water Tribe and Earth Kingdom won the Hundred Years war was because of Aang, not the Tribe or Kingdom itself. In hindsight, the Avatar had to win the war for the Water Tribe and Earth Kingdom, because without him, the Fire Nation would have won.

But in Westeros, there is no Avatar, or any legendary hero that powerful. Yeah there is the prophesied hero Azor Ahai, but that’s left ambiguous. When the Houses and Kingdoms of Westeros go to war, they must rely on themselves, their vassals and if luck’s on their side, allies. They know that no ancient hero is going to come and save them. They live in a world where victories are uncertain, alliances unstable, and even the power of kings as fleeting as the seasons. And yet despite this world of power struggle, old grudges, political vice and infighting, The Kingdom of the North survived the War of the Five Kings and White Walker invasion without aid from anyone as powerful as the Avatar. And if they could defeat the Iron Throne and White Walkers without bending or the Avatar, then they can defeat the Water Tribe. Plus I think Faceless Man and Greenseer power, while more subtle than Waterbending could give them an edge. Arya could assainate tribe heroes by disguising as allies, and since the Moon and Ocean spirits have phayical form, Bran could potentially warg into Tui/Yue, and shut down her power without killing her, therefore La would not intervene since the only way to encure his wrath is to kill the moon spirit.

It's a battle of opposite

Live Action vs Animated

Fuedel army, vs Guerrilla militia

Steel vs Bone

Magic vs Ki